The Sorcerer's Apprentice®
The Original Occult Suppliers since 1975
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Puretongue
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If anyone is concerned about the detail of the new regulations replacing the FMA, you can see them by following the links from the site Richard mentioned at the start of this thread.
Since they include a change in the fundamental principles of UK law (from "innocent until proven guilty" to "prove you didn't con them") it might be worth a read.
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Sandygrounds
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How true Denise - you have your finger on the pulse I see.
There are frequent apparently unrelated secular beliefs (often not of a religious nature) which the Evangelical-Machine regularly targets. Abortion, Euthanasia, Homosexuality etc, all such Freedom-of-Belief issues come under the fundie sledge hammer as topics they'd love to have settled under Holy-Writ! Since the early days of Christianity, the Church Fathers and their underlings have been seeking to disenfranchise all unconventional philosophies, which they identify as conflicting with their absolutist Biblical-Doctrine. Into this oppressive showground comes COMPLEMENTARY HEALTH. We all know how Herbalism, Dowsing etc were used during the notorious Burning-Times as categorical proof of guilt by the inquisitorial 'Matthew-Hopkins' fan club back in the 1600s. Well nothing has changed that much! The reason for ancient and modern-day Xtian prejudice herein is largely due to Holistic Health's long PRE-CHRISTIAN heritage that of course links intimately with PAGAN FAITH SYSTEMS. If anyone wrongly thinks that today's Xtian approach is somehow more 'enlightened' then they have sadly fallen into the mind thrall of the biased system at hand.
Anonymous says:
“I believe that legislation of some kind has to exist to protect people from occult fraud ( because there is a lot of it about, and it does nothing for the reputation of genuine occultists - quite the reverse).”
I disagree and find that response to be the rather naïve and the slippery slop back to outlawing unpopular forms of occultism like witchcraft. Legislation is a hammer historically used to crush unorthodoxy and religious dissent and what makes you think anything has changed that much? Are you aware that MPs and their minions in the UK, who pass laws, are still willing to single out persons from Pagan backgrounds and highlight their beliefs in a negative fashion when it suits their arrogant purposes? Do you really think you can trust such politicians to take your beliefs into proper consideration in such events? I feel that “genuine occultists” would not need such things highlighted as I have done above!
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Denise W.
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Hi Sandygrounds - you are right to be both cynical and suspicious. This is a good opportunity to point out in this thread that amendments to the FMA are an obfuscation. There are more subtle gambits being used by Xists , many of which are so cleverly presented that they actually obtain the approval of unthinking members of the occult community! E.G. SAFF research proves that The BMA(run by Xists) has for 20 years campaigned to bring alternative healing methods under their control thru discrediting alternative therapies. They have been aided in this by most New Age therapists who have pandered to the medical monopoly putting everything in the hands of people whose sole intention is to CRUSH all alternative options. This campaign was piggy-backed onto the barmy Health and Safety laws which restricted even further the availability of innocuous raw materials to people who wanted to treat themselves. Another facet is the state's increasing training of 'Health Professionals' to seize control over what we eat under the guise of protecting the nations health. Gingoistic PR against Binge Drinking, Smoking, etc are the puritanical precursor to a Government Health Id Card which will demand you live and eat the way the 'professionals' tell you to. Those who don't will be banned from free NHS care and make you un-insurable for car, house, accident, (and many other things). Marabas prophecied all of this and lots more in his Secrets of Mind Control(see www.sorcerers-apprentice.co.uk/mindctrl.htm ). Yes we must of course resist negative changes to the FMA but as Sandygrounds says, it is important that we see what is happening in the bigger picture. Surf the SAFF website ( www.saff.ukhq.co.uk )and join in with their strategies. The SAEF is for general occult methodology, not protest. The SAFF has its own forum ( http://www.pliner.net/appmb2/1c76fb ) and is the place for more advanced networking on censorship / freedom of speech issues. BB Denise W.
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Sandygrounds
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It’s hard to comprehend this debate when we realise that any new Fraudulent Mediums Act regulation would be promoted and passed by politicians that largely support the Christian fifth column in Parliament and all the historically bogus and repressive tripe it stands for. Such measures would be joy to the Xtian right that is cross-party and well –funded. They would jump in and use such an act to once again cut into the heart of occultism. The picture is bigger and some need to open their eyes wider. Due to this I am highly suspicious of anyone promoting such measures.
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act, I'm Anonymous again!
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posted by denise.wadsworth@sorcerers-apprentice.co.uk
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This heated discussion between Puretongue and Anonymous is important because it reflects the two main polarisations of the New Age today. Puretongue is one of many who apparently has had experience of and knows about people who have suffered victimisation and constant unfairness due to the oppression of their beliefs by Xists (Marabas's definition of an Xist is a person who has been indoctrinated with and fully bought into Western Christian cultural mores to the point at which they see every other belief as a danger. Often these people are in positions of influence and make false judgements based not upon secular facts but upon a crippled, fearful dualistic view which has been impressed upon them before they were self-aware). Anonymous on the other hand has apparently never suffered persecution and only knows of those who have at a distance. This makes his expansive, generous, 'subjugate-thine-enemy-with-love' approach far more comfortable than it would be if he was actually at the receiving end of subtle and not so subtle prejudice which is levelled against good people who just happen to believe in something which the Xists don't agree with. I wonder if Anonymous has considered the constant persecution of Scientology from Western governments of all shapes and sizes who use every dirty trick in the book to try to oppress Scientologists. I am not a scientologists and often they can be arrogant assholes but the point is that their's is a good example of how rabid victimisation of a minority can occur. Anonymous either isn't aware of it or prefers to turn a blind eye. Before the British Human Rights Act leaders of Scientology were banned from coming to the U.K. and their claim to be a relgious belief slandered. Now that they have the freedom to expand here Anonymous can watch what happens when the Xist machine goes into top-gear to discredit a belief using the tabloids and complicit media of this country. Watch this space BB Denise W.
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Denise W. mediums act
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posted by winter_snake
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Denise could you tell me if the new freud medium's act will affect the good work that the S.A does. Will we see a line gathering of critics and materialist,s scientis seeing this as ther oppotunity to shut you guy's down. Its kind of worrying me.
[Infoburst: Don't worry Wintersnake - the Xists have spent 2,000 years trying to stifle and suppress freedom of religious and political thought and as long as only one of us remains free they've lost. Without getting too heavy, Marabas says that it is the duty of every esotericist to exercise his/her rights as often as possible and not be cowed by the verbal restraint, emotional blackmail, political expediency or plain old unadulterated threats from people who are a drag on the evolution of the cosmos. This thread has moved off the possibility of an update to the Fraudulent Mediums Act and into a general discussion on censoring freedom of speech which, as Puretongue has already said, is more appropriate to the SAFF's forum if anyone wants to go into more detail on it there (www.saff.ukhq.co.uk). M believes there is little chance of a new FMA and so just keep on keeping on. BB Denise W.
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act, I'm Anonymous again!
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posted by Puretongue
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Hello Anonymous
I'm sure we're both thick skinned enough to survive the debate. I have not at any point taken any offence and certainly meant none myself.
As you say, we've different views. And debate has never really been fostered by everyone agreeing.
The late 1980's and early 1990's showed just how easy it is for society to be moved towards a more intolerant and dangerous stance towards minority spirituality. Whilst I accept that most of the scene missed the broad thrust of what was going on at the time, it was, non the less, an extremely dangerous period which is having repercussions right down to this day. If that's paranoia then so be it.
I remind people frequently, if they show an interest in the occult scene, of the worst of the persecution that destroyed so many lives because similar, and in some cases, identical psychological manipulation was used to get and keep the ball rolling more recently.
As there are large and well funded groups of religious bigots that would like to see us disappear, being aware of the processes that are used is vital for present day, serious occultists.
I realise also that this is somewhat off topic, so I'm going to drop this now. The SAFF website is an excellent resource for anyone interested in this area.
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act, I'm Anonymous again!
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posted by Anonymous
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Hi Puretongue,
I think that we are both way off beam when it comes to judging each other, and after all, this is an anonymous forum!!
We see things from different perspectives. My own stance is that minority interests have to take into account the larger picture. Britain is historically Christian but it is still a very secular society. Britain, for all of its faults, is one of the most tolerant countries in the world, and occultists are not percecuted more than other minorities 'most' of the time. If anyone tries to throw the system then they are going to get some crap from the establishment.Human nature is what it is - it is nothing new, and even Lao Tse advocated that our aim in life should be to become unknown!
All religious and political factions get trouble!Surely it is better to remain silent. Why do occultists have to go around bragging about their beliefs, when the majority of the people will never be sympathetic the occult.
To return to our debate, I believe that legislation of some kind has to exist to protect people from occult fraud ( because there is a lot of it about, and it does nothing for the reputation of genuine occultists - quite the reverse).Whether the FMA or other, more general anti-fraud measures can be used to counter liar's and scammers is something of an open question! Again, I think it is perspective. I think some of your views are too heavy, even a little paranoid with regard to being victimized.
Over all, I feel that a general attitude of goodwill is required and that the only way that this is really possible is through honesty and integrity. Problem is people need to be forced to play by the rules when it comes to things like money, goods and services.
A tricky dilemma!
I meant no offence and wish you well
BB
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Puretongue
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Interesting - you're way off beam with my occupation by the way.
If I were a school teacher I would have to say go back and redo, or at least read the previous posts through again. It would appear from your last post, fo example, that you think the FMA (1951) is new legislation rather than act which is scheduled to be repealed in April.
What price a life? Advocating consumer protection whilst implying we shouldn't worry about persecution if we're genuine - cos we won't get caught - and all the time clearly aware that thousands of innocents can suffer and die in a repressive process. But don't worry - they'll be able to get their money back from the end of pier fortune teller?
"Today we live in a secular society where no single religion has more rights than another.." So there's no Blasphemy Act? NO Sunday Trading laws? NO guaranteed legislative places for the clergy? No Church Courts? No campaign by other religions to achieve the same legal rights as Christians? Need I go on? Yes, I suppose I must. Try and get somewhere registered as a place of worship under UK legislation if you're anything other than Christian. Or pop along to the family courts and watch despicable ex partners using someone's interest in the occult to prevent them seeing their kids (what, betrayed by a nearest and dearest? Never happen to a mason eh?).
"You seem to have no regard for basic rights: that people deserve protection from fraud: that we live in a society where we are entitled to proper justice and if we are pushed on this, to have comsumer rights! " Well it's been said in other posts by people far better informed than me, but apparently it will bear repeating. Fraud has been illegal already. It continues to be illegal today. And no doubt it will be illegal for the foreseeable future. There are lots of laws which have a bearing on consumer rights, which can be used against those you clearly hate,and since you appear to value them more than staying out of prison, I presume you'll be quite happy.
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Anonymous
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Helllo! It's Anonymous again!
If you are talking about a largely phoney occult scene, then your reaction is justifiable. If you are trying to say that private adepts or members of secret magickal fraternities have been persicuted for their beliefs then you are wrong.
Rosicrucianism and freemasonry have existed for hundreds of years and its members have not been the victim of the kind of hate you are speaking of ( a little fuss in Nazi Germany, but nothing on a major scale, and certainly nothing on the scale of other groups eg. homosexuals,Jews,Communists etc ).
Furthermore, the Christian Church and the monarchy supported astrology and magick for hundreds of years.Think of Bacon,Dee,Kelly and Bishop Grossetest no less!!! Heresy was something else, and for that thousands of clergy went to the stake,not just a few witches!!The inquisition was an attack on anyone, or anything that was a threat to the Church (the ruling elite of the time) not just, or even especially occultists.That is history! Today we live in a secular society where no single religion has more rights than another, so why all the fuss about FMA? It won't be implimented by the Church will it?? It will be used by 'people' to promote fair play in financial transactions. What is it that frighten's you Puretonge? Is your livelihood threatened by such legislation when it is only there to punish con-artists and protect the innocent?
If you get ripped on eBay then you want then you want something to be done about it don't you? The same rules, and the protection that this affords, should apply to transactions within the occult ( It is not me being superior about initiates, but rather you in your role as an apologist for every type of charlatan.).Are you saying that we should allow the cheats to get away with fraud? Such a stance is both unethical and flawed in the extreme. Your stance of resignation towards fraudulent activity is alarming because the only people it can benfit are liars and criminals. You seem to have no regard for basic rights: that people deserve protection from fraud: that we live in a society where we are entitled to proper justice and if we are pushed on this, to have comsumer rights!
Think on Puretongue because if you think that your beliefs deserve to be identified with NAN, then they will always be frowned upon by the general public as seedy money making scams or at best, an excuse to be lazy and full of BS.
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