The Sorcerer's Apprentice®
The Original Occult Suppliers since 1975
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Puretongue
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"the Witchcraft Act had no impact on genuine initiates whatsoever, unless of course they would choose to impress their knowledge onto others!"
Or got caught in the act, or accused, or owned a bit of land the authorities fancied, or.. need I go on. And that's just the historical record. Then there was the proposed legislation a few years ago which would have seen involvement in the occult scene facing jail for up to five, yes, count 'em, five years.
But let's not take an interest in that. Let's leave it to others to stop this occurring, after all, they'll never catch the clever initiate will they?
Anonymous, I looked at your post supporting legislation in this area, wondered what you had in mind, and asked you to clarify. Thanks for doing that. I too strongly dislike many of the ads, and the new age stuff, although I do believe the simple profusion of the new agers in general soften the attitudes of many who would otherwise react to us with hatred. Better to be thought of as someone into NAN than a dangerous child killer eh?
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Anonymous
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Hello again! yes this is anonymous replying to Puretongue again.
My point was I do not have legislation and I am not a politician. Your replies seek to goad me into taking an interest into something which to my mind is periferal. Genuine occultism always survives because it never seeks publicity. the FMA and the Witchcraft Act had no impact on genuine initiates whatsoever, unless of course they would choose to impress their knowledge onto others! now this is a whole different debate if we are talking about the right of free speech because we DO NOT HAVE FREE SPEECH OF ANY KIND AT ALL in the UK. We are as tongue tied as Puretongue because of PC nannies and control freak - men in grey suits! I have no objection to free speech but unless there is a complete change of the ruling elites ( very unlikely ) we are stuck with it!
The S.A are correct in asserting that the thread has become misinterpreted. I am a loyal S.A customer, and on the basis of that it is obvious that from my point of view you are at the top of the genuine key to occultism. OTHERS however, and I have a hatred of rubbish like premium rate Tarot and astrology lines, and assorted magical and lucky charms sold in the back of occult scam rags, that I cannot condone a policy that refuses to prosecute.
A way forward is to insist that 'physical' esoteric goods may be sold openly i.e you recieve your book or crystal or whatever. Advice of an esoteric nature could be sold under various conditions and the only fair way is if the proposed remedy fails then a full refund is given. That may seem harsh but it would protect all parties - genuine people would receive or pay for what they require but all charlatans would be totally discouraged from ripping people off if by law they are bound to refund all monies to people that have evidence that they have been conned. A complicated issue, but one that I feel can be solved with some careful thought.
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Puretongue
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Oh dear. So no clear idea in mind as to what the legislation should say in order to discriminate between genuine and charlatan, nor how it could be enforced or administered? And yet you support it anyway?
Get on to your higher self (the preserve of you initiates remember) and ask it how the politicians would actually word this law and what the knock on effects would be. Or perhaps you could look at why the FMA came into being and how it has actually been used. You might also want to consider that the SAFF had to mount an all out campaign to prevent a reintroduction of witchcraft laws a few years ago - laws that would have seen genuine and fake alike in jail for up to five years.
Finally, it looks as though you have some particular type of legislation in mind ("HOWEVER, since I have been pushed on the point, I am of the belief that such legislation would have more benefit than drawback "), so why not let us into the secret and tell us what you want the authorities to do i.e. show us your draft. If you don't have a draft in mind, what exactly are you offering your support to?
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Denise W.
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The long and the short of it is that THE ONLY CERTAINTY IN LIFE IS DEATH and anyone who pretends to know the Right Way To Live should be shunned as a pestilence. Who therefore has the wisdom and knowledge to judge any other brother? Even a dishevelled one? Unfortunately people with no soul prey on other people all the time. There's plenty of crooks in ordinary life so there's bound to be the odd one or two within the occult. Occultists should be that bit smarter and that bit choosier. In the S.A.'s experience spanning 35 years you can virtually guarantee that crooks pretending to be occultists are weeded out very quickly before they can do real damage to anyone. The gods do not favour them and genuine occultists will not give them space so there is no need to set up a vigilante group to cater for them - that will do more harm than good. Certainly we do not want restrictive legislation to 'rubber-stamp' genuine and non-genuine esoteric interests. As far as megalomanic troublemakers with delusions of grandeur are concerned (i.e. people who are not criminal - just misguided) they fulfil an important function - ultimately it is down to each occultist to become informed as part of their own evolution and if they aren't quick enough to detect a genuine teacher from a pretender then they will soon get up to speed once they realise they've been had. Marabas says that you must give people the freedom to learn and evolve whatever their state of progress is. It is our universal right to make and learn from our own mistakes, The sensible thing to do is to continually PROMOTE THE GENUINE TEACHERS and ensure that beginners get access to open arenas of debate like this forum which don't leave much space for pretenders to hide in. BB Denise W. ENDS
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Denise W.
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In effect then Marabas says that the Fraudulent Mediums act was simply yet another attack on freedom of belief because, naturally the Xists hoped that it would somehow disadvantage the growth in popularity of spiritism etc.,
Getting rid of it today should make no difference to the way that genuine occultists conduct themselves and offer services. It is MUCH easier for the police to prosecute an ordinary case of fraud than it is to try to do it under the Fraudulent Mediums Act so it was hardly ever used anyway. There are already powerful laws in place (The Misrepresentations Act for one, in Britain) which impinge upon any charlatan offering out bogus esoteric services. It is MUCH easier for the police to use matter-of-fact statutes of this kind than to get involved in spiritual debates over whether someone who sets themselves up as a soothsayer is a fraud or a saint. We would not therefore worry about the repeal of the Fraudulent Mediums Act and we should not confuse that with the very real ongoing attempt to suppress alternative/fringe beliefs of all kinds.
However, all this is a completely different thing to the other discussion on this thread about genuine seekers 'policing' the occult to feret out charlatans. We are in full agreement with Richard and Puretongue. It is absolutely essential that the widest possible spectrum of lawful involvement is permitted within the crucible of the occult. The 'window of normality' of Western Occultism is completely alien to Shamanistic Magicians in Asia. The ramifications of classical mysticism are utterly different to the way that pantheists see the world. The very strength of occultism resides in the differences within it. Stand up to throw stones that man who chose his beliefs when he was 20 who has not moved to another paradigm by the time he is 40? SEE PART THREE
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Denise W.
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This is an excellent and pertinent thread. M has asked me to include another perspective because it appears that some contributors may be confusing two issues. The Xists will do anything to avoid the implications of the supernatural and their politicians will always try to discredit esotericists as a sacrifice to warn off free-thinkers and ensure conformity of the masses. In this more or less constant state of persecution the rights of occultists AND non-conformist freethinkers are being erroded dramatically in many areas. However it would be very dangerous for the government to insist upon the prosecution of any GENUINE spiritualist or diviner. Genuine in this context means that the person concerned must be able to show that they genuinely and sincerely believe in what they are doing. This is the yardstick which was developed by the SAFF (founded by Marabas - see http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk ) in their research with the United Nations reportage on Religion and Belief and which is now enshrined in U.N. records. Any police force which tried to prosecute a spiritist, spiritualist, magician or soothsayer based on their beliefs being counterfeit would immediately open up a barrel of worms nationwide because if the sincere beliefs of occultists are suspect on the same basis so must the beliefs of the orthodox religions as well! The Fraudulent Mediums Act was actually a sensible attempt to repeal the Witchcraft Act at a time when scientific materialism was gaining sway. However the old guard Xists insisted on having their puritanical pound of flesh at the time and projected their prejudice into a replacement act which was supposed to protect gullible people from being duped by charlatans (even though there was sufficient 'regular' laws about fraud for the police to prosecute them whether they committed fraud within or without an esoteric framework). SEE PART TWO
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Anonymousreturns
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It's Anonymous again! Quite simply (my legislation!)don't confuse me with a politician of any kind and after all it was you who brought up the subject of the FMA. Not me!
HOWEVER, since I have been pushed on the point, I am of the belief that such legislation would have more benefit than drawback : it protects people from unscrupulous con-artists who prey on the unfortunate and the incredulous.
My guess is that charlatans wish to protect charlatanism for their own non occult money making scams, and if you happen to fall into that catagory then that is your problem! Ultimately, con-artists con themselves into all sorts of misfortune as a consequence of the misfortune that they bring upon others.Cult leaders may con their followers some of the time, but they end up conning themselves all of the time. More to the point, if all these people ever do is lie to their higher self then any contact that they have with it will be percieved as a lie, the result is the worst kind of advice possible rather than the clairvoyance or "powers" that they claim to be the experts of! These things are the preserve of genuine initiates and a very few so called masters.
Go and buy yourself a tarot reading or something and learn by your own mistakes.
Anonymous through and through
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Richard Abbot
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But it seems that's exactly what they are going to do!
"They burning witches - so what's new?" - someone in the excellent graphic novel Promethea
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Puretongue
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Precisely Richard. Since our anonymous corespondent is so keen on legislation I thought it would be interesting to see what he/she had in mind beyond "something must be done."
It seems obvious to me that any legislation, due to its inherent limits, will be incapable of discriminating between the genuine and the exploiter and so will become a form of persecution.
But anonymous thinks otherwise? I await his draft legislation with great interest.
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RE: Fraudulent Mediums Act
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posted by Richard Abbot
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Aren't there many paths to truth? Believe me, i absolutely detest NAN, Parking Angels, Cosmic Ordering and all that crap, but how does a law deal with those that peddle rubbish and not effect the SA and those that are genuine? My experience of politicians, who make the laws, is that they will not be able to discriminate between truth and fiction and we will all be tarred with the same brush - one step further toward the burning of witches again? If you perform a working, or do a reading for someone, and they are not happy with the results/information,, under this proposed legislation it is you who will be in trouble, not them for thinking that you had all the answers and could perform miracles. Isn't that a dangerous move? I am still undecided...
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