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RE: End Of Story
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posted by Doc Hudson
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truely, End O Story.
Thanks
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RE: End Of Story
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posted by Gerry Green
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Tom contacted me privately. While maintaining the privacy of his contact, I feel I must comment that from his more detailed description of the event(s), he did not brake check the ESR. He hit the brakes when the ESR was next to him.
Yours in Speed (and Clarification),
Gerry Green
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RE: End Of Story
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posted by The Wallflower
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Brake checking is highly dangerous. From my research, EMRA is not a demolition derby.
Move to the side and let 'em by if they are not passing you or responding to your hand signals to pass. Report the dangerous and the rude and those competitors who slept through whatever track orientation program is in place to the proper folks at the track or to the racing organization, but never brake check someone - no matter how annoying the person behind you is. It could cause an accident.
The race track is not the place to realize you need anger management training.
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End Of Story
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posted by Fred Schroeder aka: Doc Hudson
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Gerry, Thanks You Have represented EMRA Proudly.
I also have Raced with many organizations and in many different class's over the past 25 years.
Whether i'm in a F/A or an ST6 there is only one Club/Organization where i look forward to combined Small and Big Bore Races "EMRA" because our Racers are Racers and know and fully understand the capability of opposing class's and Drivers.
I sincerely hope we run combined Big and Small bore at Summit in a few weeks, last years combined field was the most fun i ever had and the fastest my Daughters honda ever wennt down the main straight thanks to those silly yellow things.
Complainer, [not meant as insult, just forgot the name you use] I invite and welcome you and ask that you come join us at Summit. As you shake hands and meet drivers i'm sure you'll see things differently.
Reguards,
Fred Schroeder
ST6 Honda ST^
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by Gerry Green
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Part 3:
If you would like to discuss any of these (or other) issues further, I would be glad to discuss them with you. As I stated at the drivers' meeting on Friday: EMRA looks upon all of its participants as customers. We want them ALL to enjoy themselves so that they want to return (and bring their friends). While this is not always possible, that is the aim.
Respectfully,
Gerry Green
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by Gerry Green
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Part 2:
If this happens even once, then the passing car my be somewhat hesitant to to take further offered openings, fearful that contact may occur. I'm not sure how you determined that the flaggers were "annoyed" with you, unless maybe you interpreted more vigorous blue blags as annoyance. I hope you didn't "stand on the brakes" with the other car behind you. That is a recipe for disaster. Had you contacted me to discuss your concerns, we could have clarified things, and (hopefully) resolve the issue.
Second, regarding the issue where "one of your racers bumped me throughout the esses while I was being passed by another car", you fail to indicate whether it was nose-to-tail contact or side to side. If by "throughout", you mean constant contact from the exit of Big Bend to the ext of turn 5 (onto No Name Straight), I'm pretty doggone sure it would have been reported - especially if it was nose-to-tail. Again, I received no reports of this kind of contact. If there was side-to-side contact, what may have occurred was that the ESR was using the other car's pass to make his pass easier, and you didn't expect the 2nd car (the ESR) to be there. In multi-class racing - from amateur to the pro ranks, drivers are constantly told in drivers' meetings that when one car is passing, one must expect more cars right behind them. The passing car still has the responsibility to make the safe pass, but the car being passed should also be aware that more cars may be coming. I failed to make this point in the drivers' meeting, so I apologize for that. Again, had you contacted me to discuss these issues, we could have determined what the exact situation was, and attempted to resolve it.
As far as the "discourteous" and "hot dog" comments go, I'll first say that I personally know only one of Charlie's drivers from Friday: Charlie Turano. He is neither discourteous nor a hot dog. He is fast and smooth. Second - once again - I have heard no other complaints about the ESR drivers. Third, with all due respect, we're not playing tiddly-winks here. Neither are we at the Monerey Historics, trying to protect very expesive pieces of history. This is racing. Wheel-to-wheel racing. One *must* expect a certain level of aggressive tactics. That being said, we also expect (as I stated in the drivers' meeting) that there be *safe* (non-contact) racing. It is the balancing of the appropriate levels of aggression and safety that make the better racers. Just because another driver is more aggressive than you does not *necessarily* mean tat they are discourteous or a hot dog. Again, I did not witness the events, nor did I get any other reports, so it is impossible to ascertain whether your allegations have merit, or your expectations are unrealistic.
Finally, regarding your displeasure with the placing of ESRs in small bore:
Run groups not determined by lap time only. Safety (reflected in car size and construction) enter into the decision as well. I'm sure you most would agree that having an ESR and a GT-1 car in the same group is fraught with peril (safety-wise). EMRA has, over the years, experimented placing the SRs in different groups. Experimentation has clearly shown that small bore is the best place for them. One must also reasonably expect that - with only two groups at this event - there will be significant lap time differences no matter *what* the gouping is. One must also expect that some cars will be better prepared and better driven. Cars being driven at lap record pace will exaggerate the class differences when compared with cars that are further from their class lap record - especially in longer races.
I will be at Summit Point, hopefully to drive in the 4 hour enduro (if anyone knows of somone looking for a very fast, very consistent co-driver to help split costs, please let me know). If not driving, I will be there to lend a hand in helping EMRA. If you would like to discuss any of these (or other) issues further, I would be glad
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by Gerry Green
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Tom,
Hi. I'm Gerry Green - your Chief Steward for Frday's event at LRP.
Since we haven't met, I'll give a (very) brief summation of my racing background. This is only to give some idea that I have a broad background, and have experience in many areas, including the emotions involved.
I have been involved with EMRA for about 19 years. I am a 3 time ST-3 enduro champion (with Mike Berardesco and Steve Katz). I have also raced with SCCA, Grand-Am, and IMSA. I currently hold an FIA Grade C license (I used to hold a Grade B license, but haven't driven prototypes in years). I have driven cars from ST-7 to formula cars to GT-1 to prototypes, and almost all in between, and I've even driven one of Charlie's ESRs (back when they were called Spec Renaults). I also have been (at various times, for various organizations or teams) crew, flagger, steward, chief steward, Chief of F&C, instructor, engineer, driver coach, data ac engineer, and race strategist. I'm sure I've left a bunch of stuff out, but you get the idea. I have driven in multi-class races many times (amateur and pro), and have been in the slowest, middle, and fastest classes, so I have more than a little experience in this area.
Enough of the background. On to the issue(s) at hand.
I must admit that I am puzzled by your post. At the drivers' meeting I ran on Friday, I addressed many things. Among them were:
1) Courtesy between classes. This was in response to Charlie's request for cooperation. I mentioned that, if a car from another class appears behind you, it is most likely because that car/driver combination is faster, and while you are not *obliged* to make it easy for them to pass, it is most likely beneficial for both of you to find a way to get them by without negatively impacting your race. I even gave the example of maybe letting off on the front straight enough to let an ESR by before Big Bend, so that they could use their better handling to pull out a gap in the twisty bits so that they would be clear enough so there would be no further tripping over each other.
2) I encouraged everyone that if they had any problems of any sort, come see me at any time, and I/we (EMRA) will do everything we can to resolve any "issues".
JUst FYI, I monitored the flagger network all day. I was also up on the starter's stand as much as I could be - especially during the races. This was so I could see things first hand. I have much respect for our flaggers. But if I have to make a determination regarding infractions, it is always much better if I view things first hand. I must say that I neither witnessed nor heard (on the flagger net) of any incidents of note between any of the ESRs and any other classes. Further, not a soul came to me to complain of any such problems. With all due respect, if you had a problem at the event, you should have come to me so that we could attempt to resolve the issue as best we could *at the event*. If you are lucky enough to have radio communication with a crew member in the pits, they could have even spoken to me *during the race* so that I could have checked with the flaggers in real time, and taken any action needed (if only to keep an eye on a particular car/driver suspected of questionable behavior).
Addressing your two "absurd" situations:
First, having someone "tail" another car for 6 laps - especially if they are trying to pass - is not unusual at all, let alone "absurd". If the car to be passed gives a clear "point-by" in a reasonable area to pass, and then gives the following car a clear opportunity to pass, there is rarely any drama. I have done this literally hundreds of times when driving in slower classes. The problem usually comes when the car to be passed gives a point-by in an area (such as a straight) where they have an advantage (usually horsepower), but then does not ease up a little or brake a little earlier or stay wide, to make it possible for the other car to get past safely. If this happens even once,
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by Doc Hudson
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My only concern is "i stood on my Brakes to force him to pass me" Thats Scary. In small bore I've drafted,played tap and been tapped trading positions for 5, 6, 7 laps. I know my competition and they know me and we understand low HP and peddleing as fast as we can. Brake checking anyone should be reported by the Corners and your outta here.
I was not at Lime Rock, have driven ESR's. Takes special talent to keep them wound up.
i'd suggest you file a Protest [part of Racing] This is not the place to make a fool of yourself.
Thinking Before Clicking, Na Click
aka: Fred Schroeder
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by Entropy Racing
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Interesting perspective.
I spoke with Steve today about your dice with him and what he told me was that you pointed him by and would not lift. seems consistant with what you were saying, it is just that you didn't realize that he CAN'T pass on the straight. once he got by you he dissappeared because he was actually faster. he was the 4th fastest of our 5 guys with a best lap in the mid 1:04s. just a mid pack guy trying to get by a slower car. no big deal
As to anyone bumping you down the esses, it seems unlikely anyone did it and certainly not intentionally, as our noses are quite fragile and we try not to damage them.
As a team, we pride ourselves on racing clean, and RARELY hit anything. Couple of spins, one small tire swirl between 2 of our drivers, and that is the sum total of the trouble we caused. the rest is called racing.
Your justification that we should be placed in big bore due to our amazing lap times is kind of silly. the Winning Acura ran similar times and Miatas CAN run times in the 1:02S as well. Should they be in big bore as well? Patrick's time is a LAP RECORD.... that means he was going as fast as anyone ever has. usual times are mid 2s to 3s which falls neatly into quick small bore times.
Patrick, Jason, and Charlie T lapped the field a couple of times, Steve did not, and Roy got lapped. It is what mixed field racing is all about. The winning Acura must have also lapped the field a time or 2. it is easier for him as he can pass on the straights. great job nonetheless
Aggressive driving is not a crime in motorsports. Nobody got punted, nobody got hurt and nobody even had to drive in the grass as a result of our hot dogs.
The fact that you admit that you were holding up a car and pointing him by and flaggers were sick of watching it just indicates that you have a little race craft to learn. Steve ran his 5th race on Friday, and did a damn fine job. Got 10th out of 20 or so, didn't crash and even passed a Honda or 2. Bravo.
We are continually frustrated by guys who can't give a .1 second lift to let us pass but we consider it part of the challenge, not a cause for public complaint. Maybe you should attempt to be less challenging and we can get on with our race and let you get on with yours.
See you at Summit
Head hot-dog, Charlie Greenhaus
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by tcav
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I suppose control means different things to different people. I, as well as 3 other small bore racers were appalled at the lack of courtesy your racers showed on Friday. Whoever Doc Hudson is, I don't believe he was at the race on Friday. As for power to weight argument, how is it then that they can close on the pack and lap production cars sometimes several times in a race? These are full blown race cars. Why not put them in big bore? They can still race within class as they do now. Their lap times are closer to big bore times anyway.
As for control, I personally experienced two absurd situations. First, I had one of your racers "tail" me for 6 laps while I was waving him by lap after lap at every possible point on the track. Flaggers became annoyed with me for not letting him by. Finally, I
stood on my brakes to force him to pass me. What was the point?
Second, another one of your racers bumped me throughout the esses while I was being passed by another car. Where was I supposed to go? Perhaps next time I'll just pull over on the grass to let him by.
They are discourteous at best, and at times, just plain hot dogs. Making up a third of the field does not justify their behavior, as I gather the thought process is.
I've stated my case. There will be, I'm sure, many opinions on this. I will not be posting any more on this issue nor will I respond to any other posts. I've had my say. Thank you for allowing me to express my dissapointment with this group of racers.
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by Entropy Racing
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Great format for Friday's race. all 5 of our guys had a great time and if not for a puncture, Patrick Page would probably have come from 17th overall to win. his consolation was that he SHATTERED the existing ESR record at LRP by setting a fast lap of 1:01.7
As to the ESR in small bore "issue". Where would you put an 85HP 1500 pound car running on hard compound DOT race tires? Sounds like Miata power to weight.
as to the control issue, we have been through this before. we had 5 cars on track for EVERY lap of the race. no contact with any other cars, 1 spin in the race (without incedent) and 2nd and 4th overall finishes. Seems that those guys are well under control.
True enough that sometime they take hard passes in the infield but on the other hand, it seems that if there was some more consideration we wouldn't have to take as many.
Please keep in mind, we are not complaining, nor are we hitting anyone, rarely do we crash, require a tow or oil the track. and just as importantly we made up 1/4 the field.
We do a split start from the back of the pack to avoid early race incedents with other cars, and every car we pass we caught, and are faster than. If we started at the front of the pack the results would be similar except we would be clogging up the start for the front running sedans who will ALL get to turn one before us. this way if you see a yellow ESR in your mirror you know to leave an apex or a slight lift coming into a corner and he will be gone for good in a lap. It is what mixed field racing is all about. We have fun and do our part to keep the racing clean.
Seems that we have things well under control.
See you all at Summit, where we plan to get 2nd place overall in the 4 hour for the 60th time. (who knows, maybe we can actually win someday. Hoping for more than 6 other cars to race against
Charlie Greenhaus
Entropy Racing
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by mtmclaughlin
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I want to thank everybody for a fantastic weekend as well. Time Trials certainly were wet, but the workers did their part to keep things running smoothly all day.
See y'all at Summit Point!
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by Mario Fallas #97 Corvette
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F A N T A S T I C!
Ditto on the flaggers, on top of their game & EMRA crew, great job!
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by Doc Hudson
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ESR's [those pesky yellow things] in small bore is where they belong. They keep you/us honest and on your toes. Just learn how to draft them if you cant pass them. They are all Great drivers with inferior hp.
Glad everyone had a Great Time.
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by tcav
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Absolute thanks, again, to the flaggers, control and all staff concerned. Another great day. Just need to do something about ESR's in small bore....they are out of control.
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RE: Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by The DevilX Guy
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I second #36, thanks to all. We should make the 41-lapper an annual deal. A nice long spring every now & then is a blast. Come to think of it, make them all this length.
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Thanks EMRA -- Lime Rock Race
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posted by Number36Car
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Special thanks to all you Blue Flag wavers Friday! You kept me out of serious trouble all day when I had serious right side mirror problems....
The car's license plate doesn't read: "Thanks Workers" for nothing !!!
Happy to do my part to help keep you from boredom
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