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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Tom Masciopinto
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Hopefully this will finally answer the question of open passing in EMRA Time Trials:
NO OPEN(corner) PASSING
EMRA and its current insurance provider will not allow open passing in its Time Trial events.
(unless we pay more money for racing insurance)
Add on top of that the lack of full roll cages, and the lack of experience of passer & passee to be able to perform this maneuver.
Any argument for needing open passing is negated by the above section. How about $25 MORE per person to be able to pass someone in a corner maybe once or twice in a day? Not feasible.
Sincerely
Tom Masciopinto
EMRA CHAIRMAN
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by yellow mr2
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I think the best time of day - would work best.
As for the open track - I agree this is up to the driver to arrange his track time. As a driver of a "momentum" car I need that good run thru the turns to get a good time. However I agree some of my fastest laps are in "TRAFFIC". I have always judged my run group by the track - some tracks I will run in white group because my lap times just are'nt fast enough for blue group. - No EMRA official has ever had a problem with this - If I am running to fast in white, a quick talk with Julie or someone and a move to Blue is easy.
I would love to have open passing but I also see the condition of vehicles that constantly run in this format and I understand the insurance issue. Please just remember us on the straights when you blow past those of us that are HP challenged, we normally don't bump you when you are holding us up in the turns.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Tim
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What's the cost to buy/rent transponders? Will the times be "viewable" by the drivers or is there a way to make them available to view with a laptop?
I like the idea of the fastest lap of the day. Full course passing with point-by is a good idea for an advanced group (if the insurance allows). I'm not there yet but could appreciate it if I were.
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RE: TT format
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posted by MR. Pete
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That is great news !
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RE: TT format
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posted by Bill G.
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That is the nicest kind of stuck I can envision.....
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RE: TT format
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posted by Julie and Mike P.
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I want to thank everyone for the great discussion and suggestions. If you know of anyone else with thoughts about how to format the day have them post something here or email us at racegirl54@hughes.net
We will be ironing out the details at the next several board meetings and will keep you posted.
I am not sure our current insurance allows the open passing so that will have to be investigated.
Unfortunately you guys are stuck with us for another year.
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RE: TT format
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posted by Michael
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What would happen if we lined up all the cars on the grid like we normally do for our current practice sessions, but released 1/2 of the field first, and held the others for 20 seconds or so? This would spread us all out on the track from the beginning and make it easier for the faster cars to get to the front of the pack if they didn't start there because there will be fewer cars to fight with.
Take the transponder idea with the fastest time of the day, thin the herds like this, and you might have a good base to start with.
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RE: TT format
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posted by 89civic
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My vote is for open passing WITH point bys, (at least the driver will be aware that you're attempting to make a pass), your fastest lap time of the day should be counted in ANY session, ( Flashgordon has a point about desperation moves if timed runs are done in only one session), but I believe that the run groups need to be tweaked to close up the huge differences in lap times of cars running in the different run groups. There was a minimum of 15 seconds between cars in the blue run group at Summit Point this year. This could be narrowed to about a 6 second difference between the 3 groups that we presently run. One need only to look at the closing speeds of say Chris Lall, Timothy Brownawell, or Gregory Dilimetion on slower cars in that group to realise that it will be a recipe for disaster if open passing was allowed with no changes to the groups, especially when the guys are trying to post fast times in their sessions with the transponder introduction.
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RE: TT format
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posted by thai.s2000
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my vote is
- transponder (rent from EMRA or purchase your own)
- fast lap of the day
- open passing with point by in the advance group only
if you're Time Trailing in the beginner or intermediate group, you're probably not going to be competitive enough to win in your class anyways, so not having open pass in those group is not going to effect your time that much.
i've run with NASA and Porsche club in open passing format and i find that drivers are more aware and have more respect for each other.
Thai
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RE: TT format
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posted by Focus189
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Julie does this mean you and Mike are going to be chairs again. Kind of sounded like you were done in late Oct early Nov. Very glad you guys are going to be back.
My vote would be for fastest time during the day.
Anyone that says that they could not get a good lap in durning the day is either in the wrong run group or just not paying attention. I have never had a problem with traffic except for once at NJMP. I pulled into the pits, rolled through and only saw 1 other car all session.
Clear track is up to us, the drivers as much as EMRA. Like I posted before 1/2 the problem is the guys that want to play drag racer. For whatever reason their cars are not as fast in the corners but they have a ton of power down the straights and run away from everyone. Some give and take and this problem would go away as well.
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RE: TT format
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posted by MR. Pete
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I think having the transponders available to the TT drivers who want to have timed laps is the way to go. This gives the driver ALL DAY to set his best lap. I also agree the top level TT class drivers should have the chance for open passing but only in a specific group. If the timed sessions run thru the day there should be no track time lost at all for any of the TTer's and the total track time for the day will be put to better use for more sessions. Pete
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RE: TT format
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posted by Flashgordon
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I want to thank EMRA for all the hard work and thought in order to improve our events. It's nice to be involved in a club that actually seeks the opions of it's members!! The use of transponders is a welcome improvement that will make our events run smoother and give us more time on the track.
I beleive that the fastest lap of the day is the best idea. It would take some planning on the part of the drivers to decide when they wanted to crank out a quick lap. There is always the complaint about traffic, but we normally have a pack of cars bumper to bumper, but the rest of the track is void of traffic. There is plenty of room to turn some quick times if drivers are willing to find it. This is part of driving and is a skill that contributes to the competition.
The idea of a single session to get a timed lapped could lead to some desperation and poor judgement in order to get in a good lap in such a short time. The hurried mentality would lead to comprimised safety.
Keeping timed runs at the end of the day with transponders doesn't free up enough track time to justify the costs. The cars would still have to be staged by lap times and we would still face the issue of catches and re-runs.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Justin
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I would really like to see:
Groups based on skill level, with only the highest group being timed. The scoring would go by fastest time of the day. The highest group (TT group) would have open passing. It would be experienced drivers only, so this shouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't expect everyone who time trials now to be able to jump right into that group, as open passing takes additional awareness, and much more consistent car control is required.
This is how NASA lays out their events, and seems to be the only efficient way to get it done, allowing the best compromise between maximum track time, safety, driver enjoyment, and fairness.
If we do transponder based timing, with no open passing, and only for one session in the day, I believe my times will be screwed for 90% of the events. There are very few sessions where I get a clean lap. Open passing provides me the oppurtunity to get a pass done regardless of whether the other guy lifts on the straights.
Justin
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Michael
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89Civic (is that you, Chris?) could be onto something. How were the run groups really broken out anyway? Towards the end of the season, I was picking a group based on scheduling convenience, density, and car capabilities. I think this might be how a lot of people operated.
Instead of breaking it out by lap times, perhaps we could break it down by car class. ST7, ST6, ST5, and ST4 (for example) could all be in the RED group. ST3, ST2, ST1. etc could be in WHITE. This way, we wouldn't have to jumble things around throughout the day as lap times start coming in and we'd already have everybody separated pretty thoroughly by car capabilities. Students can clutter about in their own group so that they can increase their comfort level throughout the season.
As for when times are taken, I think it should depend on how difficult it would be for timing and scoring to sort through 80 laps for 100 cars. If it's automatically tracked by a computer, let's do fastest time of the day. That way, if some goof with a Miata gets kicked off the track by Lime Rock officials half-way through the day, at least he gets a time.
Just my $0.02.
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TT format
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posted by Julie and Mike
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The transponders were agreed upon but the timed runs were not finalized or voted on. We did discuss using the fastest lap of the day but not agreed upon. As TT chairs we would like to have the input of the TT drivers before any decision is made as there are numerous ways to do this. Such as:
1. fastest time of the day.
2. Practice all day and the last session of the day take the fastest lap during that practice.
3. Still do timed runs at the end of the day but use the transponders to speed up the process which would cut down on the time needed to do the timed runs.
Julie and Mike P.
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TT format
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posted by Julie and Mike
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The transponders were agreed upon but the timed runs were not finalized or voted on. We did discuss using the fastest lap of the day but not agreed upon. As TT chairs we would like to have the input of the TT drivers before any decision is made as there are numerous ways to do this. Such as:
1. fastest time of the day.
2. Practice all day and the last session of the day take the fastest lap during that practice.
3. Still do timed runs at the end of the day but use the transponders to speed up the process which would cut down on the time needed to do the timed runs.
Julie and Mike P.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Focus189
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You are never ever going to have clear track. It is our job as drivers to make room. I have run some of my fastest times of the day in the practice sessions, while either chasing someone or being pushed by someone.
The problem I think are the guys that want to "drag race" down the straights and then when they get caught in the turns they just take off again down the straight. There needs to be more give and take out there. None of us are running for money or fame. It is to have fun and be the best we can be. Some of the guys act like getting past is a fate worse than death.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by 89civic
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Maybe a system where the Blue, White and Red classes are split into groups with cars of similar run times might help. In the case of TT times at the Summit Point event this year, the 2 run groups could have been Blue -cars in the 1:23s to 1:29s range, WHITE -cars in the 1:30s to 1:36s range, and RED -cars in the 1:36s + range. The run times could then be declared after the first run session when everyone has some idea of their run times. The cars can then line up in order of lap times for the second session so as to have clear track ahead for timed runs. The format could be tweaked for the later sessions if cars are breaking out of their run group by running faster than declared times.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Doc Hudson
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Tom, Thanks for being interactive and quick to reply.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Tom Masciopinto
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Al Lard's e-mail address is fake.
Don't know why he needed to.
Any new policies or changes will be posted here.
Otherwise, status quo.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Focus189
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Al I understand your point about blocking, ect but that is what the flaggers and race control is for. If someone is blocking or driving recklessly I am sure control would black flag them. Most of the guys with EMRA also know they can back off or pit in and go right back out and get out of a group or situation that is not safe or comfortable.
Only session I have been in where guys are not going all out most of the time is the 1st session where most guys are feeling out the track or warming tires. Every other session has been all out for the most part.
I like this format and hope to have my car back together in time for next year.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Steven R.
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Look foward to trying this format! I thing it will be safe and give us more track time. If this format does not work out as planned-EMRA can always go back to the old system. Or maybe just modify-6 cars (or more) on the track for timed runs and still use the transponders.
Hope to be out in 2010!!
Steven #13 Corvette
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by thai.s2000
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i agree with open passing for the advance group, but only with point by. that way some one doing hot lap wont get slow down in the non passing section.
can we also improve the classing system of the cars, maybe use the points system like NASA.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Justin
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Any chance we can get an advanced run group with open passing? I still have constant problems getting point-by's... and don't have the power to make it happen on the straights.
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by Justin
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Awesome!!!
AMB TranX260?
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RE: 2010 TT policy
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posted by thai.s2000
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This is a great idea, i'm already planing to buy a transponder to run with other groups next year. looking forward to more track time :)
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2010 TT policy
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posted by Tom Masciopinto
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For 2010 Time-Trial season : EMRA is going to switch from Timed run sessions to best time of day using our timing equipment. For those wanting to run for EMRA points and championships a Transponder will be required. They are for sale from EMRA or will be available for rent at the track.
This new format should give more valuable track time for our time-trialers instead of 3 cars on track for a few hours.
Every lap on track will be timed and reported to our members.
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